I would like to offer a comment about “what isn’t all that debatable is that bureaucracies without urgency and big missions tend to be cumbersome.”

Have you considered the developing Cyberspace bureaucracy with urgency and a big mission to provide for the common good against attacks like those on Estonia and Georgia?

Unfortunately, for the sake of national security (to include expressing opinions on the Internet), from what I am reading about the Legislative and Executive Branch attempts to set it up, this is another bureaucracy that may be headed toward cumbersome right out of the shute–like the Department of Homeland Security.

–I don’t think I know so. Prof Steven Jones and others have already made peer reviewed research proving nano-thermite was found in the WTC dust from multiple independant samples. Nano-thermite is a highly explosive manufactured substance that can be used for controlled demolition. There was no other reason for nano-thermite to be in the WTC. Furthermore, the way the buildings collapse is clearly indicate of a demolition, and the jet liner fuel is not hot enough to melt or bend the beams. Finally the main pillar beams have been shown to be blown off with cutter charges in the photos. These central beams would not have been cut from jet fuel tens of stories up. Finally molten metal was found in the basement of the WTC. Jet fuel isn’t hot enough to make molten metal neither would it remain hot enough if it had to leak all the way down the floors and into the basement. WTC was controlled demolition just as WTC 7 was, which was never even referred to at all in the Commission report, as if it never existed.

[Israeli spying was a significant problem for us]

–Israeli spying IS a problem for the US. Seeing that Israel pulled the biggest false flag operation on the US, unrivaled to that of their USS Liberty and Lavon Affair. Furthermore, due to the power of the Israel Lobby, Israeli spying enjoys immunity and privelages and laxity compared to chinese or other spying

http://www.davidduke.com/general/israel-gets-no-fault-espionage-with-friends-like-this-who-needs-enemies_14879.html

[As for the boycotts, can you boycott Boeing? Lockheed? SAIC? CSC? They’re private companies. For-profit companies. Capitalist companies. Can you boycott them? No, you can’t.]

—??? Private companies are boycotted against all the time. Since when does being a private company make you immune from boycott

[As for the idea of implied consent, you do consent every day you stay here. The American people have embraced government of the people, by the people, for the people. It isn’t perfect, but we do consent to it.]

–some sort of sick joke this is. The american ‘people’ are not 1 Borg like organism. we are individuals, and most of us never consented to the Constitution when we were born. This is dishonest. Even if you don’t consent to it you have to pay taxes. So how is that consent??? It’s force of law, coercion of the system upon everyone. There’s no consent. If I wanted to set up a tent in the woods and declare that I don’t consent to the government, then decide to grow some fruit and sell it in the market, I’m coerced to pay taxes, there’s no consent.

[I am a libertarian myself, but a pragmatic one.]

–what a sick joke!! Then you aren’t a libertarian at all. This is the core issue of libertarianism, that it rejects the entire basis of “government” because it was and always will be coercive. There’s no such thing as a “pragmatic” one, you either are or aren’t. Knowing how much you love government bureaucracy and think we “need” it, you have no claim to calling yourself a libertarian.

[I understand libertarianism very well, but I suspect you do not.]

–you most definitely DO NOT understand libertarianism well at all. Do you even read the articles on mises.org???? If you did, you would see that almost every one would disagree with your opinions of how much you love bureaucracy and think “it works” and that “we need it” and that we “consent” to government.

As for the idea of implied consent, you do consent every day you stay here. The American people have embraced government of the people, by the people, for the people. It isn’t perfect, but we do consent to it. I am a libertarian myself, but a pragmatic one. You are as belligerent as far-left liberals who want the system to change TODAY. You exhibit a lack of understanding of how change happens, as does your president.

As for the facts I requested, you only respond with allegations. Give me facts, and then we can have a conversation. I understand libertarianism very well, but I suspect you do not.

–this is negligable. The defense, justice, FBI, and CIA agencies are still corrupt as hell. “Insepctor generals” will only go so far with ‘minor’ scandals and corruption, not major politically charged corruption (9/11 false-flag operations, israeli spying privileges)

[Your power as a consumer and your power as a voter are approximately equal in that neither makes a ripple on the ponds of commerce or government.]

–this is false for 2 reasons.

1 boycotts are effective against companies, boycotts however cannot be done on governments because they are monopolies

2 you’re forced with consuming government services and paying for them all the time. At no time can you withdraw your taxes and pay someone else to do a better service

[as an adult there is some implied consent to be governed by your consumption of government services, assuming that you drive on roads, benefit from street lamps, are free from being enslaved by invading forces, etc.]

–this is dishonest. Not only can those things be provided by the market, but we never consented to a host of other ‘services’ that are monopolies and corrupt and we never wanted to pay for them. Ie public education, healthcare, special interest funding, etc.

[There are options for you to opt out, though–Somalia is a place where you would have little or no government (and little or no government services). If you are a libertarian of an anarchist bent, I’d recommend a visit.]

–this is a smear on libertarians. And Somalia does have a government and the US foreign intervention has screwed up that area as well. Furthermore, right now in Somalia different groups are fighting TO BECOME THE GOVERNMENT. It is this lust to power for government that is driving the evil. The very system and nature of government (coercive force) is the source of its corruption

[I would like to see supporting facts to show that government is more corrupt today than a century ago (and not merely better policed)]

–this isn’t too hard. With the rise of “intelligence” agencies and militaries, covert operations and psy operations are frequently carried out at the behest of governments and special interests working with them. A century ago the government didn’t have as much control over aspects of life than it does now. EVERYTHING is now controlled by the government, food, your own belongings, what you do in your house, how you raise your kids, even whether you’re able to raise kids unless a “government” child worker thinks you’re “unfit” and takes them away from you. Virtually every action that you do regardless if it’s in your house, government will look to ‘regulate’ it.

[that government is larger relative to population than in previous decades]

–too easy. Government budgets have only increased annually in the past several decades, never decreased. Government deficits have only increased. Government staff have only increased, never decreased. Taxes have also always increased and never decreased or stayed the same. Government always gets bigger and more expensive, it never stays the same or gets smaller. It keeps hiring in order to serve its own interests and extract wealth from the productive class. Finally, government has gotten bigger by printing paper money dollars for the past decades ever since the gold standard was abandoned. Now inflation is at an all time high and sky rocketing, and the dollar has lost over 90% of its value. Other governments with fiat currencies have done the same.

[Further, I am not certain how you arrived at the claim of immorality. I understand libertarianism very well but find your arguments confusing.]

–governments are immoral because they are inherently coercive and non-consensual. If you actually understood libertarianism you would have known this

In the case of Inspectors General, they are established as independent entities. I can cite example after example of investigations that resulted in severe penalties and changes in operations. It’s worth noting that IG investigations in the agencies you mention above implicated private corporations in recent findings (Defense – Boeing, Lockheed; FBI – Science Applications International Corporation; CIA – Blackwater; etc. etc. etc.).

I assume your point about stopping funding to corrupt companies is an attempt to delineate between mandatory taxes and optional consumer spending, and I further assume that you trust markets to prevent monopolies. I would only note that you choosing not to spend money with Microsoft (for example) will not keep the folks in Redmond awake at night. Your power as a consumer and your power as a voter are approximately equal in that neither makes a ripple on the ponds of commerce or government.

Again, I’m not sure where you live, but as an adult there is some implied consent to be governed by your consumption of government services, assuming that you drive on roads, benefit from street lamps, are free from being enslaved by invading forces, etc. There are options for you to opt out, though–Somalia is a place where you would have little or no government (and little or no government services). If you are a libertarian of an anarchist bent, I’d recommend a visit.

I would like to see supporting facts to show that government is more corrupt today than a century ago (and not merely better policed) and that government is larger relative to population than in previous decades. Further, I am not certain how you arrived at the claim of immorality. I understand libertarianism very well but find your arguments confusing.

this is a laughable joke. The Justice, Defense, Treasury, FBI, CIA, departments are some of the most corrupt federal agencies and no “inspector general” has been able to remedy this. Inspector generals are part of the agency anyway it’s not neutral oversight. They have conflicts of interest. This is laughable.

[ Very rarely have regular citizens or shareholders had the means to remedy corruption in investment banks ]

citizens have the power to stop funding these corrupt companies by not paying for them and their services. This isn’t the case with government

[ In each of those sectors, it has been the role of government to investigate and remedy corruption ]

-in more cases than not this has actually been to stop competition or some other advantage the company has based on some bogus ‘anti-trust’ laws. AKA governments actually have ‘down selling’ laws where it’s illegal to sell too cheaply because you’re ‘monopolizing’ by selling so cheap

i’m a libertarian, my point is that no government is legitimate because it’s all coercive and not contractual. We didn’t choose to abide by the constitution or the charter because we were born into it. It’s not a legitimate, mutual contract. Government is coercion under physical threat plain and simple, it’s not legitimate. We didn’t choose to have PMs and senators, and 3 level courts and an executive branch and a judicial branch etc etc etc.. All of it is coercive and it usually disintegrates and becomes more corrupt

the fact that government corruption only increases and that the size of government always increases never decreases proves that government just doesn’t work and is immoral

Bureaucracies exist for reasons, and it might surprise you to learn that efficiency is not one of those reasons. Bureaucracies exist primarily for the purposes of consistency and fairness. In the US, each agency has an Inspector General whose responsibility it is to investigate and remedy corruption. This happens regularly, and I can cite numerous examples from the current and recent administration. As you mention MPs, it is possible that you are somewhere with a parliament but without executive branch oversight in the form of an IG or similar function. That would be unfortunate, and certainly a fertile ground for corruption, but not a valid argument against bureaucracy.

What you fail to address in your comments is the bureaucracy of the private business, especially at the level of the global corporation. Very rarely have regular citizens or shareholders had the means to remedy corruption in investment banks, software companies, aerospace manufacturers, entertainment, or food production. In each of those sectors, it has been the role of government to investigate and remedy corruption. That isn’t an argument against private industry, I should note, but rather an argument that private industry isn’t always good and bureaucracies aren’t always bad. Your comments tend to conflate several issues that do not necessarily have the same attributes. There are bureaucracies across public, private, non-profit, and non-governmental sectors across the globe. Despite what we might want, they tend to be perfectly designed for the results they produce.